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Think Tank for Inventors
by BSME » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:42 pm
- BSME
- White Belt
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- Location: Kentucky
Hello to all,
I have created a think tank for inventors. I am looking for seasoned professionals to join forces with me. Match wits with the best and brightest at:
http://gadgets.forumole.com/index.php
I'm an engineer with a lot of experience in design and development.
Also, check out my inventor web page:
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/gadgetforum/index.html
I want to expand it to include resource people.
I have created a think tank for inventors. I am looking for seasoned professionals to join forces with me. Match wits with the best and brightest at:
http://gadgets.forumole.com/index.php
I'm an engineer with a lot of experience in design and development.
Also, check out my inventor web page:
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/gadgetforum/index.html
I want to expand it to include resource people.
by Michelle » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:13 pm
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Michelle - Black Belt
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- Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:27 am
Hi BSME:
Welcome to the site. I hope you will be here a lot as we would love to have your input on the things people work on.
If you are selling your services, you can post your submission in our inventor resource directory for consideration.
Michelle
Welcome to the site. I hope you will be here a lot as we would love to have your input on the things people work on.
If you are selling your services, you can post your submission in our inventor resource directory for consideration.
Michelle
by BSME » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:10 pm
- BSME
- White Belt
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- Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:29 pm
- Location: Kentucky
I'm not selling my services at present time. Maybe sometime in the future. I can answer questions in the engineering field. I've been an inventor "hobbiest" for most of my life.
I'd like to see a better success rate for inventions because only a few of them ever earn a profit. That's one of the things that really scares me away from the patent process. Also, big companies steal good ideas and leave the little guy fighting in the courtroom for years. I'd like to see reform.
I'd like to see a better success rate for inventions because only a few of them ever earn a profit. That's one of the things that really scares me away from the patent process. Also, big companies steal good ideas and leave the little guy fighting in the courtroom for years. I'd like to see reform.
by BSME » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:35 am
- BSME
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Failure can happen from a multitude of causes. Unrealistic expectations probably leads the list, and the failures fall into several categories.
Secondly, even if your idea is the greatest thing since the micro-chip, you can be "outgunned" by corporations with deep pockets. They can steal your patent idea and tie up your lifetime savings in litigation battles that drag out for 10 years or more (eg the guy that invented the variable speed windshield wiper, that was stolen by an automaker). For big corporations it's a no-lose proposition. In 17 years your patent is public domain property anyway.
Other people find ways to slide around your patent claim with a few dimensional changes. This is especially prevalent in the asian market, so I hear.
Secondly, even if your idea is the greatest thing since the micro-chip, you can be "outgunned" by corporations with deep pockets. They can steal your patent idea and tie up your lifetime savings in litigation battles that drag out for 10 years or more (eg the guy that invented the variable speed windshield wiper, that was stolen by an automaker). For big corporations it's a no-lose proposition. In 17 years your patent is public domain property anyway.
Other people find ways to slide around your patent claim with a few dimensional changes. This is especially prevalent in the asian market, so I hear.
by Michelle » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:52 am
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Michelle - Black Belt
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So can invidual inventors prevent that from happening? No?
Can groups of inventors working together help that? Maybe but it would be a hard fight.
I think the key is that an inventor has to be smart and really do his or her research. They should only speak to companies that have a good reputation for using outside inventions and they need to have a good non-dicslure agreement in place.
Are you involved with any inventor organizations? Which ones?
Can groups of inventors working together help that? Maybe but it would be a hard fight.
I think the key is that an inventor has to be smart and really do his or her research. They should only speak to companies that have a good reputation for using outside inventions and they need to have a good non-dicslure agreement in place.
Are you involved with any inventor organizations? Which ones?
by DaddyMathis » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:25 am
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DaddyMathis - Yellow Belt
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BSME wrote:Other people find ways to slide around your patent claim with a few dimensional changes. This is especially prevalent in the asian market, so I hear.
What kind of changes can someone make and get away with stealing your idea?
I have a provisional patent. I know of several other ways to make my invention work. Should I document these (disclosure doc., inventor's notebook, etc.) in case someone tries to get around my patent or would that even make a difference?
by Road Show » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:25 am
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Road Show - Brown Belt
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DaddyMathis wrote:BSME wrote:Other people find ways to slide around your patent claim with a few dimensional changes. This is especially prevalent in the asian market, so I hear.
What kind of changes can someone make and get away with stealing your idea?
I have a provisional patent. I know of several other ways to make my invention work. Should I document these (disclosure doc., inventor's notebook, etc.) in case someone tries to get around my patent or would that even make a difference?
DM, There is no such thing as a "Provisional Patent"...there is only a provisional patent application. This provisional application isn't even looked at until the formal Utility Patent Application is being prosecuted. All the provisional application does is set an early filing date which can be granted to the formal patent application. The actual filing date of the formal patent application starts the 20 year clock ticking...so if your patent is granted, your rights are protected back to the date of the filing of the provisional application...i.e. 21 years maximum.
The way you protect yourself against infringement is to suggest as many different embodiments as possible in your provisional application. By suggest...you should use language that doesn't exclude possibilities. Call the embodiment you have the "preferred embodiment"...this suggests it is not the only one. Don't try to be concise in your provisional...the more you include, the more you can draw upon when drafting your formal application.
As far as protecting yourself from the sharks...good luck. As an analogy, I liken it to trying to protect yourself against uninsured motorists. The only way to be 100% protected is to NOT DRIVE. Sooooo...if you go down this road, you will always have to be concerned about getting ripped off. Like others are saying, deal with companies you can trust, that have a good reputation for dealing with inventors or licensing ideas.
by BSME » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:46 pm
- BSME
- White Belt
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- Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:29 pm
- Location: Kentucky
Michelle wrote:So can invidual inventors prevent that from happening? No?
Can groups of inventors working together help that? Maybe but it would be a hard fight.
I think the key is that an inventor has to be smart and really do his or her research. They should only speak to companies that have a good reputation for using outside inventions and they need to have a good non-dicslure agreement in place.
Are you involved with any inventor organizations? Which ones?
I'm not involved in an inventor organization, but invention was my primary motivation for getting a BS in engineering. I also have a BS in Business.
I've looked at patenting things since 30 years ago. One of my early influences was a Machine Design Magazine article about patents ( I think it was in 1984). Also, I know people that have obtained patents and who sought to obtain patents.
One of them, for example, invented toy sponges for kids to bath themselves with. The spong held a bar of soap, and the toy made it fun for kids to take a bath. He presented his idea to a company and they said they weren't interested. Within a half year they were making the guy's toy and selling it themselves. He didn't have a war chest to fight them in court.
Then there are the companies that sign an agreement to pay royalties, and set the idea on the shelf because it competes with their existing product line. If they don't sell the patented product then they don't have to pay royalties on it. There is nothing the inventor can do about it unless the contract states a minimum production level. Now isn't that a sweet deal?
There must be dozens of ways to shortchange somebody.
Let's say you get a patent deal signed, and the company decides to make your product in China. Nothing is made in the USA anymore. As you might know about half of China's software is pirated. Do you expect a patent to fare any better?
Then there's the scenario where you get a patent and someone else layers on their improvements and gets a patent. How do you deal with them effectively?
In the end it is little wonder that american patent applications have less value in a world that has no respect for intellectual property. In addition the US patent process itself is obsolete:
http://www.uspto.gov/go/com/annual/2001/03b_challenges.htm
The patent office isn't equiped for the demand.
Lastly, consider american corporate culture that is unreceptive to innovation unless it is in their "core business model". Even then it is a tough sell.
I remember when I was an engineer co-op student at IBM's R&D department, we thermally tested banking equipment with thermocouple probes to verify the equipment would work in all the class thermal environments. We had to rerun tests because at least one of the 50 or more probes would typically fail during the 4 hour testing period. So I redesigned the strain relief feature and reduced failures by more than 90%. Then I called the vendor, Omega
http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=A&book=Temperature&all=1
I asked them if they would make some with the redesigned feature, which required only a simple material change in the clip. You'd think they would be overjoyed to have a customer wanting to buy their product, and giving them a technical solution, free of charge. No, they never made them that way before! Their products were selling so why did they need my idea? OK, so I paid the tooling costs and we made the parts ourselves.
Likewise with so many other companies I've dealt with. Nobody wants to take a risk. Everyone is so content to sit in their little box. Even worse, maybe an executive with a high paying position is jealous of your idea, because they didn't think of it, and they are paid to think of ideas like that. It makes them look bad, so naturally they join the chorus of naysayers to pooh pooh your invention.
I don't mean to sound discouraging, but realistically only a few percentage of all patents actually make a net profit for the inventor. It's kind of like the movie star business -- for every big star there are hundreds, perhaps thousands that didn't make it.
Additional info
by Roger Brown » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:48 pm
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Roger Brown - Black Belt
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Hi BSME,
I agree with your assessment of the licensing and patenting world. It is hard to 100% protect yourself. Unfortunately this is the game we have to learn to adapt to if we want to play. One thing I would point out that I haven't seen here is the time clock of the provisonal patent. Always remember it is a place holder for you to go back and start the clock for your full patent. The other thing is if you do not apply for the full patent within that year time frame your idea becomes public domain and you no longer have claim to it.
When you write a patent you really need to think of any adaptations to it you can see someone one else may use to jump your claim. You don't have to use them in the final product, but you do want to have them noted so that if anyone tries to jump the patent their claim can be fought as being of obvious design based on your patent.
You thing to keep in mind. Even if you got your idea placed with a huge company there will be knock offs. It is regrettable but when you are dealing with a world market everyone jumps on a good thing and wants a piece of the pie. You can only hope your product is a quality item that has good branding to grab the market share.
Look at the George Foreman Grill. It had about one year on the shelf before you saw a variety of knockouts in the stores. This happened to a company with deep pockets that could assualt all comers with lawyers. They look at it from a cost effective angle. Will the expense of fighting cost more than they gain by making their brand stronger and competing with the ripoffs? If you ask most people that want one they do say they would buy a George Foreman first. So, they are winning that battle. The lost revenue is put down as the cost of doing business.
There is an easier way to kill the competion. Get more shelf space than the other guy and keep them smaller than you.
Look at Coke and Pepsi. Go into any conveinance store to the drink section who has the largest portions? Coke and Pepsi. You can have the greater drink in the world, but it won't get you a dime if you can get itin the store in front of the consumer. That is how they protect their market share. That is why large companies are alays looking for that next idea. The larger their product the smaller your shelf space. Look at cereal aisles. What do you see 3/4 of the aisle is kellogg's or Post. They own that niche.
They don't need patents to drown the little guy. They just claim all the turf.
That is why so many small businesses fail. they can't compete with the small share they have to work with.
I agree with your assessment of the licensing and patenting world. It is hard to 100% protect yourself. Unfortunately this is the game we have to learn to adapt to if we want to play. One thing I would point out that I haven't seen here is the time clock of the provisonal patent. Always remember it is a place holder for you to go back and start the clock for your full patent. The other thing is if you do not apply for the full patent within that year time frame your idea becomes public domain and you no longer have claim to it.
When you write a patent you really need to think of any adaptations to it you can see someone one else may use to jump your claim. You don't have to use them in the final product, but you do want to have them noted so that if anyone tries to jump the patent their claim can be fought as being of obvious design based on your patent.
You thing to keep in mind. Even if you got your idea placed with a huge company there will be knock offs. It is regrettable but when you are dealing with a world market everyone jumps on a good thing and wants a piece of the pie. You can only hope your product is a quality item that has good branding to grab the market share.
Look at the George Foreman Grill. It had about one year on the shelf before you saw a variety of knockouts in the stores. This happened to a company with deep pockets that could assualt all comers with lawyers. They look at it from a cost effective angle. Will the expense of fighting cost more than they gain by making their brand stronger and competing with the ripoffs? If you ask most people that want one they do say they would buy a George Foreman first. So, they are winning that battle. The lost revenue is put down as the cost of doing business.
There is an easier way to kill the competion. Get more shelf space than the other guy and keep them smaller than you.
Look at Coke and Pepsi. Go into any conveinance store to the drink section who has the largest portions? Coke and Pepsi. You can have the greater drink in the world, but it won't get you a dime if you can get itin the store in front of the consumer. That is how they protect their market share. That is why large companies are alays looking for that next idea. The larger their product the smaller your shelf space. Look at cereal aisles. What do you see 3/4 of the aisle is kellogg's or Post. They own that niche.
They don't need patents to drown the little guy. They just claim all the turf.
That is why so many small businesses fail. they can't compete with the small share they have to work with.