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Postby Road Show » Fri May 25, 2007 7:19 pm

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BSG,

Some pretty harsh words from someone who's spent twelve years getting nowhere with his bottlesling. So you're the one who's gonna show us the way, huh? Sorry to jump on you like this, but when you talk about big picture ideas and all you get excited about is baby bottles and ear plugs, maybe your vision is a bit distorted.

RSG

Postby bottleslingguy » Fri May 25, 2007 8:12 pm

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This would be a great time for TJ to post his video.

Postby bottleslingguy » Fri May 25, 2007 8:20 pm

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It didn't come from nowhere, that visceral distaste you have for me. What was your product? Harsh? What offended you so much about it? Does the shoe fit or something like that? How long have you been waiting to use that set of harsh words you just hit me with?

I'm talking about real product development not some flight of fancy. Why don't we do your project? Why wouldn't you vote for your own invention?

Look, you can try to insult me all you want and it won't get anyone anywhere AND it's taking away from time spent on my own product. Best of luck with yours whatever the hell it was in the firstplace. :D

Postby Average Inventor » Fri May 25, 2007 8:50 pm

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BSG,

To clarify what I meant by "value for certain things is different than (yours)." I value getting the groundwork solid before moving forward. I value making business decisions based on business evaluation methods over emotion. I value the idea over the passion for that idea. Don't get me wrong there is a place for passion and I think you have a considerable amount of it which is a very positive trait.

I think we look at things from different perspectives. Because of this I felt the need to clarify my position concerning the group taking on individual inventors patented projects and championing them to get them to market. I don't feel we should do this because there are licensing deals for that. If the product is far enough along and the market is there then the inventor can get it off the ground with a little help from the forum or by reading how to do it from those who have.

We are not focusing on arbitrary points. We are going through to see what commonalities we can agree on and what areas we need to discuss. By getting through several of the points we can agree on it can help in ironing out the scope of the group and lay the groundwork for how to proceed.

It was said that we don't need to think about percentages now since the group is not even formed yet and we have not produced anything yet. I disagree strongly on that because in any business deal or important decision you need to agree on the specifics before proceeding. Once your time is invested and money is coming in it's hard to change people's expectations and problems arise. If people know what to expect in advance they will be able to understand their risk reward ratio and determine if they want to contribute.

So lets stay on task and get people's responses to the points Scrupulous is trying to get agreement and discussion on.

Postby mojo62 » Fri May 25, 2007 9:34 pm

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Hey guys,
Please don't let this thing turn into a fight. We are here to work
and not turn this into a negative venture. Why can't a bunch of adults
calmly discuss and agree on each step of the process? At this point, we
need to make serious progress. Looks like AI, Scrup and myself ha said yes to item 1, 2 (with agreements on percentage pending) 3, 4 and a no to five.
Who else is on or off board with these items? The individuals that chooses
to be a part of this venture will have to realize that the majority will rule.
Lets do this in a calm manner. Nobody is going to get thier way on everything and to be a part of this thing, you have to be willing to give in
sometimes. I'm sure there will be some mild critisims along the way, but let's keep it mild.
BSG, we know how you feel about your product as well as this safety glasses/earplugs. By the way, where do I see that again? While they were at it, how about a breathing mask attached also? Anyway. I
think it is clear and has been clear that this group is going to develop products or methods from scratch. I believe the majority clearly expressed that early on. I also have a product (patent pending) in which
I am very proud of and will make the effort to market it in the near future.
I am not going to integrate it into this group because it is something I worked on myself. I started it myself, I will finish it myself. If the earplug thing is so great, it does not need this group to move it forward. The inventor can handle that him/herself.
We need to move forward and see you wants to continue in a civil manner!!!! And that aint no BullS**t!!!!

Postby Scrupulous » Fri May 25, 2007 10:28 pm

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Good point, mojo.

Let me just clarify something about item 2. It hasn't yet been presented properly (or voted on) to indicate a percentage deal. Although we seem to be on the same page with it, we gotta remember that other people coming into the group during this process need something written to consent to. So, I’d like to make a motion to revise item 2 to read as follows:

2. A mandatory agreement to a percentage breakdown of revenues, which, in addition to rewarding any and all co-inventors, may include provisions to reward those within the group for activities such as engineering, prototyping, licensing, marketing, patenting, manufacturing, et cetera. This agreement would be made prior to selecting an idea for development, protection, or commercialization, and would be intended to ensure that the inventor(s) could not simply circumvent the other group members, once the efforts of those others has been contributed. The details of such an agreement may be finalized at a later time, but would capture the essence of this item. The terms of the agreement would be subject to the law, and binding within the group.

…revised so that it can be re-introduced before moving on to item 6.

All this means is that our contributions here alone would be valuable, and that we should be compensated for them appropriately (at an opportunity cost to the inventor).

The reason I'm doing this now is because it seems like something people would rather agree upon early on.

Does anyone second this? It would be put back on the table next week.


BTW, I am a YES on 1,3 and 4, and (you must've read my mind) a NO-not-necessarily on 5.

Postby mojo62 » Fri May 25, 2007 10:34 pm

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SCRUP, Don't feel guilty, but you made me feel like I needed to put a rough draft on the board for item 2. NOTE: This is a rough draft, it is only
meant to be a starting block and a basic outline for item 2. I am not making the (my) rules. We would modify this to a final agreement. Those that choose to be a part need to vote on item 1 through 5.

FOR ITEM 2
---------------
1. ALL MEMBERS WOULD SUBMIT NON-PATENT PENDING OR PATENTED IDEAS TO THE GROUP. THESE IDEAS WILL BE (ONLY) IDEAS IN WHICH
EACH INDIVIDUAL IS WILLING TO LET BE THE PROPERTY OF THE GROUP. THESE IDEAS CAN BE ANYTHING FROM SIMPLE TO COMPLEX.

2. THE GROUP WOULD THEN HEAVILY DISCUSS (IN A CIVIL MANNER)
THE PROPOSED ITEMS TO NARROW THESE ITEMS DOWN TO A SELECTIVE FEW. WE WOULD THEN DISCUSS THE MOST FEASABILITY
AND BASIC DESIGN OF THE SELECTED FEW. PERSONAL ABILITIES MAY
COME INTO PLAY AT THIS POINT. WE WILL HAVE TO SEE HOW THIS GOES.

3. AFTER OUR FIRST PROJECT IS SELECTED, WE WOULD RATE THIS ITEM FROM A SCALE OF 1 TO 10. THIS RATING WOULD DEPEND ON HOW MUCH INFORMATION IS GIVIN (BY THE SUBMITTER). EXAMPLE: THE ITEM PICKED WAS FROM SCRUP. HE PROVIDED THE IDEA ALONG WITH A GOOD IDEA HOW IT NEEDS TO BE MADE. IT MIGHT RATE OVER A 5 FOR EXAMPLE. IT MAYBE SOMETHING MOST THINK MIGHT HAVE A HUGE MARKET SHARE. THEN MAYBE RATE IT HIGHeR TO A 10. THE TOTALS WOULD THEN BE AVERAGED. FOR EXAMPLE: THE GROUP AVERAGE WAS 8.

3. YOU WOULD THEM MULTIPLY .8 X A PERCENTAGE. THIS PERCENTAGE FOR EXAMPLE WOULD (always) BE SET AT 25%. THE SUBMITTER WOULD GET ANYWHERE FROM 1 X 25% DOWN TO .1 x 25% OF THE PROFIT AUTOMATICALLY. NOTE THE 25% IS AN EXAMPLE ONLY.

4. THE REST OF THE PERCENTAGE WOULD BE SPLIT BETWEEN THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED IN THE PROJECT. THIS WOULD ALSO INCLUDE
THE SUBMITTER. WE WOULD ARRIVE TO THE SPLITS ALMOST THE SAME WAY WE ARRIVED TO THE % OF 25%. IT WOULD BE MORE INVOLVED THOUGH.

5. EACH STEP OF THE INVENTING PROCESS WILL HAVE TO BE LOGGED BY EACH INDIVIDUAL. ALSO AT THE END EACH INDIVIDUAL WOULD MAKE AN HONEST STATEMENT OF WHAT THEY CONTRIBUTED. NO-ONE WOULD BE ALLOW TO RESPOND TO THIER STATEMENT. EACH PERSON WOULD THEN GIVE EACH OF THE OTHERS A PERCENTAGE OF THE REMAINING FROM WHATS LEFT AFTER THE SUBMITTERS PORTION ABOVE.
THE SUBMITTER IS INCLUDE IN THIS SECOND PERCENTAGE SPLIT BASED ON CONTIBUTION. YOU WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO GIVE PERCENTAGE EVALUATION ON YOURSELF (ONLY THE OTHERS).

6. WE WOULD THEN AVERAGE THE PERCENTAGE VOTE AND IT WOULD BE FINAL. WE WOULD HAVE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THE MATTER.

7. THINK ABOUT IT. ARGUE NICELY. BE CRITCAL BUT GENTLE. HELP ME
GET THIS HASHED OUT.

WE NEED TO KNOW WHO IS A YES OR NO TO 1,3,4,5 AND WE NEED TO GET 2 FIGURED OUT, AGREED ON AND THEN MOVE FORWARD.

P.S. CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT I CAN DO SO THAT MY WRITING DOES NOT GET BROKEN UP. I DO DELETE AND BACK SPACE FOR EDITING. NO ON ELSE SEEMS TO HAVE MY ISSUE WITH THIS.

Postby Michelle » Fri May 25, 2007 11:03 pm

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Hi

Please be nice and respectful to each other. You need to communicate difference in a respectful manner. You get enough complaints or you are out of line and we'll ban you from the site.

The whole point of this site is to build a community of inventors and innovators who are willing to help each other and not take crud from people trying to take advantage.

Let's make sure there is no crud to be found on our site. OK?

Inventing is hard enough without us fighting with each other.

Postby Michelle » Fri May 25, 2007 11:05 pm

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mojo62 wrote:P.S. CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT I CAN DO SO THAT MY WRITING DOES NOT GET BROKEN UP. I DO DELETE AND BACK SPACE FOR EDITING. NO ON ELSE SEEMS TO HAVE MY ISSUE WITH THIS.


I am not sure exactly what problem you are having. Could you explain in more detail for us?

Thanks,

Michelle

Postby bottleslingguy » Sat May 26, 2007 4:18 am

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I guess where my vision diverges in this whole thing is that I see it working like the Group is a third party or a broker/agent. I'm seeing folks who want to start from scratch and go through the patenting process with co-inventors. I see people with one or two grandiose wishlists, I see people who (as I said earlier) are going to let egos and personal power trips ruin this whole thing.

My argument for starting a project that already has a patent is because there is a HUGE chunk of work ALREADY DONE. There is no question my slings can be patented and you can change them and make newer versions if you so choose. TJ's earplug/removal/system not only comes as safety glasses, but he has a retraction version that can be appliled to regular glasses or sunglasses (for like times when you don't actually need eye safety but hearing protection (like an aircraft controller).

I see the group turning into another run of the mill inventor groups who spend day after day trying to make decisions on how nice we have to be to each other. We ARE mostly all adults here (aren't we? please tell me most people here are over fifteen!) and I think a little blowing off steam is not inherently a bad thing. I'm sure the exchange has gotten some people thinking. Hopefully they're thinking maybe BSG is right and we should look for simple and timely projects first. I'll bet a million dollars everyone who has opened their mouths about TJ's invention has not read it. Maybe went to the USPTO and glanced at the first page. This is the homework part children. This is the meat of the project. It's where you find the mutability aspects of a product that can be made not only at different costs but in varieties of styles and designs and sold in different versions for more money than others, not to mention he has several mechanisms for the functionality of the system. Remember the first thing Peter Jones said about Francisco's bike on Season 1? He said, something to the effect of, "You can't attach it to a conventional bike." and how Mark's SacMaster couldn't change it's design? These things are very important in the marketability of a product.

TJ's system can even be used with your favorite pair of safety glasses. You don't have to buy his glasses to have the convenience and practicality of this invention. Why intentionally pile huge amounts of demands on this venture right from its inception phase? We have to cut our eye-teeth (which ones are they again?) and although it may get painful while squinting, try real-real hard to keep our egos and vision in check

I honestly think "Ego-Tripitis" tm is destroying any potential this group may have.

We have to practice before we go for the big one that is so high tech it will save the world and is, most likely already being worked on by REAL eggheads with huge cash reserves.

I'm not running for President here and whatever personality problems some people may have with me over my style and values, can just not talk to me, ignore me. There HAS GOT to be some people here who can understand how marketable TJ's utility patented system is. It's a golden opportunity and to see it wasted is a shame. I thought that's what we were here for. Scrup have you even at least taken a minute to read the patent? I mention you because you are like commonly accepted as like the acting chairperson or the Dogbert of this group. 8)
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