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Re: Can I patent my invention without a patent attorney?

Postby Codex » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:32 pm

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usipe wrote:Inventors,

We're testing a Do-It-Yourself DVD patent course at WEBSITE.

Getting a patent is a very expensive process, especially hiring a patent agent or attorney. We are trying to determine whether or not inventors would be interested in a course that teaches them how to write their own patent applications and save thousands of dollars in attorneys' fees.

We are testing the product right now, and are offering it at $79 during the test period, in order to gain feedback and testimonials. (It still comes with a 100% money back guarantee.) After that, the price will increase to $149.

We'd be very interested in your thoughts.

Andrew Knight, J.D.


Dude..it's called a beta test. You compensate US for OUR time in testing your product, in return you get feedback and testimonials. That helps you to find a good price and determine market value.

I mean really.

Postby Patent_Attorney » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:22 pm

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Can you perform surgery upon yourself to save money and not pay a doctor. Yes, but then you have a fool for a patient.

If it is worth patenting then a patent attorney is money wisely spent. If it is not worth attorney fees it is also not worth filing fees either in my opinion.

Before spending money on the patent first get a good patentability opinion and search. Then determine if the invention is even marketable. How well do similar products sell and how much capital does it cost to produce.

Postby mojo62 » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:26 am

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If it is worth patenting then a patent attorney is money wisely spent. If it is not worth attorney fees it is also not worth filing fees either in my opinion.


This is an excellent point! It points out how much money is wasted
paying for the service, due to the fact that very few patented products
make it to the store shelves.

Can you perform surgery upon yourself to save money and not pay a doctor.


Would I mow my own lawn to save the money? YES

Would I repair my own home appliances to save the money? YES

Would I do my own taxes to prevent paying an accountant? Maybe

Would I do my own patent work to save money? Maybe

Would I do surgery on myself to prevent paying a Dr.? Never

Would I teach my child violin to prevent paying a violinist? Never

Postby Patent_Attorney » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:45 am

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As a patent attorney I have come up with many invetions myself. This means I should have a dozen patents . . . . . . . WRONG

First I perform a search (if I don't think it is worth 8 hours of my time to do a search it is automatically dead)

Next step. I do the search and figure out what is the scope of the patent claims (Can I get anything worthwhile) This knocks out 60-70% of my inventions that have gotten that far. For example about 3 years ago I was going to patent a usb port on a car radio, but it was filed and published about 2 years earlier and now it is a product.

The next step is do I want to spend 3-5K just in USPTO fees when I patent my invention. This kills another 25-35% of my inventions.

The next step is who can I sell it to or how can I make money. If I can't license it then it is dead because I do not have the time or patience to make it myself.

I kill off 97+% of my inventions even with getting the attorney's fees free from myself. I have a couple of inventions that are brewing that I may patent if I feel that the money is there after I spend mine to get it to the point of licensing.

The moral of the story is to get a good search and think long and hard before spending all your money. That means staying away from an invention promotor that promotes only their bottom line.

Postby Levi Porter » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:27 am

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Just because someone doesn't have money doesn't mean they don't have great ideas. I know that most patents are crap. I am just saying there are the 3% of good ones, and I am sure they didn't all come with money.

Why are attorneys willing to sue on contingency if they feel confident in results, yet patent attorneys seem to have a reputation for only taking fees when it comes to patents?

One would think that if an idea was good enough, that a percentage of the licensing agreement or shares in the company would not only suffice, but out perform fees in the long run.

The obvious all over again

Postby Mr Invention » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:52 am

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A patent attorney or patent agent sells patent help, a shoe salesman sells shoes, a car salesman sells cars and a realtor sells real estate. The name of the game is to sell your product (Free enterprise) which is what made the United States great. Unfortunatley I have noticed one thing about this forum in that there is very little discussion about the money that is required to make anything in the real world of business (Which getting an idea turned into a real product and placed on store shelves is a real business) happen thus requiring money. It is easy for me to discuss money because I have about 50 years in business (Both Private and Corporate) and I have dealt with hundreds of millions of dollars. Of the 500,000+ people that I have communicate with over the past 40 years that have had ideas 99.97% of them went by the wayside once the subject of money was entered into their idea equation. I know that I am repeating myself but in the real world it takes money to make money and any business venture there is inherent risk. I have made a lot of money and I have lost a lot of money. Fortunately, I have made more money than I have lost. As I have told 1000's of people with ideas "Don't give up your day job" in hopes of getting rich quick with an invention. I have owned over 11 businesses and once again, some have been successful and some have not. In some cases you have NO CONTROL of outside factors that can cause your business to fail. I don't dissuade people from going forward with an idea if they have a firm grip on what it takes to increase their chances of success. Unfortunately this forum is like my idea forum that I had over ten years ago in that there is a lot of rhetoric and very little successful reaction. That licensing of an idea sounds good but my experience over the past 40 years with my ideas and others has not found a successful licensing story yet. I'll take that back, there is one guy that appears to be on this forum quite often, I think his name is Roger and he claims he has licensed his ideas and it only cost him $10.00 to $100.00 out of pocket. He would be the one that should share his stories of success and provide the name of the individuals and companies that licensed his ideas. I am sure those individuals and companies are always looking for new products that they can license. I don't know why he has not given that very significant information to the people that come to this forum thus give them an opportunity to contact those licensors and be successful like him. His approach seems very inexpensive and almost risk free when you consider that the number one risk factor in any business venture is the loss of ones money.

Postby Patent_Attorney » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:58 am

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Levi Porter wrote:Just because someone doesn't have money doesn't mean they don't have great ideas. I know that most patents are crap. I am just saying there are the 3% of good ones, and I am sure they didn't all come with money.

Why are attorneys willing to sue on contingency if they feel confident in results, yet patent attorneys seem to have a reputation for only taking fees when it comes to patents?

One would think that if an idea was good enough, that a percentage of the licensing agreement or shares in the company would not only suffice, but out perform fees in the long run.



I will answer this question because it is very easy. Very, very few patent lawsuits are taken on contingency also.

Most people assume that because Aunt Sally had a lawyer take her slip and fall case that a patent is the same. No, because 95% of all contingency cases are against a company with insurance and are personal injury. There is an accepted payout for range for an injury and 99% settle eventually within that range and thus there is ZERO risk. The lawyer spends $10K in salariers of associates for him to make for example $20-30K so that the partner doubles his money or more.

A patent case is incredibly complex. With patents it is even a much worse scenario for getting paid on contingency. The few contingency deals were at 50-75% rates and it is akin to the lawyer buying the patent in exchange for forgoeing fees and finding a sub-licensee.

Thus it is a partnership instead of a contingency because there is no 3rd party to pay your client because of a breached duty in the past, only future sales.

Postby Work2XL » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:30 pm

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Roger has given the names of companies he has worked with. He has also listed products on occasion he has developed. He doesn't really blow his own horn much or seem to have to mention his vast experience in every post. He does what he does, and offers help to those who ask and is pretty even handed in the advise he gives. Personally, I've been on this site for over a year and never seen him give anything but solid advice.
His connections and success do make him the exception to the rule, but from my experience with him he is exceptional. He has a database full of contacts, and he has done the legwork to gather the info. I can't blame him for not posting the database and ruin his credibility with his sources. If they got bombarded with emails from people he can't vouch for then he would loose all credibility with them. Suggesting he should do otherwise shows a lack of respect for the position he is in.

Randy

Randy

Is this a forum for secrets

Postby Mr Invention » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:11 am

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Are you nuts? What is the big secret in helping people with information that you have. Do you have a real job? And just exactly who are you and what are your qualifications for giving any advise. Grow Up!!! I will tell people anything they want to know in order to help them. Especially how to avoid all of the expensive mistakes that I have made in numerous business ventures I have been involved in over the years. I had to run a couple of people like you off of my idea forum that I had ten years ago because they weren't qualified to give any advise and found out they were less than over achievers in their everyday life. But that is the nature of the Internet these days in that any idiot can say anything they want to without verification, responsibilitly or accountability. I would rather hear from Roger than you unless you have been self-ordained as the mediator and/or spokesperson for this forum.

Postby Work2XL » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:57 pm

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I appreciate your insights as to who I am. It is truly revealing. As to my qualifications, what I give advice upon I am qualified to give. My background is blow molding and injection molding. I'm a project manager for the company I work for. I have 20 years in the field. I quote molds, plastic part production and consult on design review and processing.
The patent advice I give is based on 18 months of research and only on topics that I am sure on.

As for wanting to speak to Roger, I recommend it. He is a great guy.
Your suggestion that he open up his database of contacts to the whole forum may explain why you made so many mistakes in your 40-60 years. It is just not realistic. I have seen him offer specific contacts to people on here, and know he as given others information off the forum as well.

Your personal attacks on me I'll let go. You believe what you need to.

As for your qualifications. I don't think I've seen ANY constructive criticism. Unless your idea of constructive criticism is "give up now". I don't really see the constructive part in your posts. I also haven't seen a list of your credentials. Being old doesn't count. What is verifiable in your posts? Your claim of communicating with 500,000 + over the last 40 years equates to 35 people a day 7 days a week for 40 consecutive years. A bit unrealistic. You may want to check your math.

As for kicking me off this forum, when Michelle asks me to stop, I will. I am pretty sure I have not posted anything untrue. I will gladly admit that I am by no stretch of the imagination being respectful to you. Personally I think you are not productive to this forum, and are not keeping with the spirit of what this site was created for. For that matter, when posting to you, neither am I. I just wish I could figure out why you keep coming back to try to crush someone else's aspirations with your opinions on what someone can or not accomplish based of a few lines in a forum.

If YOU have any questions you can contact me at work2xl@comcast.net or call me @ 720 297-1972
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