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by MOPAR78 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:06 am
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MOPAR78 - Blue Belt
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Hi Scrupulous,
Thanks for the positive comment.
Those are good suggestions but if I understand them correctly, here is why it would not work.
Without the second trap at the UTA, Sewage gasses from the rest of the system could re-enter the occupied space through the toilets vent/vents.
Even if you added a second trap downstream(which I am almost positive is a code violation), anytime the dishwasher, washing machine, tub, shower, sink, or even another toilet flushing, not only would you hear it though the toilet, you would smell the various odors.
Also by adding the second trap you have eliminated the rationality somewhat of eliminating the first one at the UTA.
If you kept the fan on continuously to compensate for the odor removal, you would still have the noise coming from the toilet issue only this time you’re also hearing the fan. Not to mention the added cost and extra operational wear of the fan.
Also my idea is not limited to homes only. Imagine the above issues in a multi-floor system, restaurants, factories, stores/malls, ect..
By code, vents have to be within a few feet (5 feet max I believe) of all traps so there are usually a few at minimum on any given house. If you had the fan on the vent line, it would draw air through the other vents as well thus reducing the cfm flow at the toilet therefore reducing the performance of odor removal at the toilet.
If you tied all the vents together to a main/master vent, it could create issues with the whole house system because the vent system needs to "breath" in and out. Also it is possible to evaporate or suck the other traps dry, especially if not used frequently.
And with all the additional piping to tie the vents together, you have spent more than what the original design had.
Those are a few reasons that I can think of now, I hope that I under stood you correctly and that my explanations make sense. I appreciate the responses you had as it allows me to re-think my idea to make sure I am on the right track.
Thanks again Scrupulous.
http://www.bettertoilet.com
Thanks for the positive comment.
Those are good suggestions but if I understand them correctly, here is why it would not work.
Without the second trap at the UTA, Sewage gasses from the rest of the system could re-enter the occupied space through the toilets vent/vents.
Even if you added a second trap downstream(which I am almost positive is a code violation), anytime the dishwasher, washing machine, tub, shower, sink, or even another toilet flushing, not only would you hear it though the toilet, you would smell the various odors.
Also by adding the second trap you have eliminated the rationality somewhat of eliminating the first one at the UTA.
If you kept the fan on continuously to compensate for the odor removal, you would still have the noise coming from the toilet issue only this time you’re also hearing the fan. Not to mention the added cost and extra operational wear of the fan.
Also my idea is not limited to homes only. Imagine the above issues in a multi-floor system, restaurants, factories, stores/malls, ect..
By code, vents have to be within a few feet (5 feet max I believe) of all traps so there are usually a few at minimum on any given house. If you had the fan on the vent line, it would draw air through the other vents as well thus reducing the cfm flow at the toilet therefore reducing the performance of odor removal at the toilet.
If you tied all the vents together to a main/master vent, it could create issues with the whole house system because the vent system needs to "breath" in and out. Also it is possible to evaporate or suck the other traps dry, especially if not used frequently.
And with all the additional piping to tie the vents together, you have spent more than what the original design had.
Those are a few reasons that I can think of now, I hope that I under stood you correctly and that my explanations make sense. I appreciate the responses you had as it allows me to re-think my idea to make sure I am on the right track.
Thanks again Scrupulous.
http://www.bettertoilet.com
by Scrupulous » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:46 am
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Scrupulous - Black Belt
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- Location: United States
Mopar,
...stop thinking, and start listening.
You have a great little project on your hands. If you don't show any indication to prospective buyers/licensees that you are willing to negotiate/cooperate for the sake of that project, then chances are you will lose your potential success to some competitor, or squander it away. I don't mean to insult you, I'm trying to help you.
Now please open your mind...
With a second trap (the one inside the toilet being the first) somewhere nearby the toilet, not in your UTA (but within five feet of the existing vent stack), you will still prevent sewer gas from the rest of the city from entering the bathroom. In many cases, the pipes from other rooms don't even join the main sewer line (in homes) for a good 10-20 feet downstream. At worst, you would be "second-trapping" only the shower and the sink in the same bathroom.
Don't worry too much about code violations right now...codes are meant to be broken. Besides, you can easily put a second trap within five feet of the existing vent. And don't try to bite off more than you can chew for now. Your main customer is the new home builder. Retrofitting older homes may be do-able, too. But you're not going to sit on your hands, waiting for some high-rise apartment developer to give you a chance to sell your project...not at this point. Let him/her come to you, when the time is right.
Keep in mind that the vent line is there only to aid the trap itself (to keep it from being sucked dry, by downstream loads). You're lucky to have them, otherwise your project wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The hard work has already been done for you. Don't punch a gift horse in the mouth (or something like that).
I know of no reason why a second trap in the same line isn't feasible. Once you begin to comprehend the value of what I'm telling you, you will see that your UTA is unnecessary. You will see the new potential in your own project, and it will open doors for you.
Now is the time to agree with people who say that your toilet can be redesigned to accomodate everything but the fan. (And, remember that the fan only needs to be strong enough to move air. The airflow at any point should be low enough to lift a head of water no more than an inch or two.)
Hey, this is your baby. You need to be willing to make some changes to it. Otherwise, you won't be able to call it your own. You should probably appreciate the help you can get at a site like this. I takes a village...
Scrupulous
...stop thinking, and start listening.
You have a great little project on your hands. If you don't show any indication to prospective buyers/licensees that you are willing to negotiate/cooperate for the sake of that project, then chances are you will lose your potential success to some competitor, or squander it away. I don't mean to insult you, I'm trying to help you.
Now please open your mind...
With a second trap (the one inside the toilet being the first) somewhere nearby the toilet, not in your UTA (but within five feet of the existing vent stack), you will still prevent sewer gas from the rest of the city from entering the bathroom. In many cases, the pipes from other rooms don't even join the main sewer line (in homes) for a good 10-20 feet downstream. At worst, you would be "second-trapping" only the shower and the sink in the same bathroom.
Don't worry too much about code violations right now...codes are meant to be broken. Besides, you can easily put a second trap within five feet of the existing vent. And don't try to bite off more than you can chew for now. Your main customer is the new home builder. Retrofitting older homes may be do-able, too. But you're not going to sit on your hands, waiting for some high-rise apartment developer to give you a chance to sell your project...not at this point. Let him/her come to you, when the time is right.
Keep in mind that the vent line is there only to aid the trap itself (to keep it from being sucked dry, by downstream loads). You're lucky to have them, otherwise your project wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The hard work has already been done for you. Don't punch a gift horse in the mouth (or something like that).
I know of no reason why a second trap in the same line isn't feasible. Once you begin to comprehend the value of what I'm telling you, you will see that your UTA is unnecessary. You will see the new potential in your own project, and it will open doors for you.
Now is the time to agree with people who say that your toilet can be redesigned to accomodate everything but the fan. (And, remember that the fan only needs to be strong enough to move air. The airflow at any point should be low enough to lift a head of water no more than an inch or two.)
Hey, this is your baby. You need to be willing to make some changes to it. Otherwise, you won't be able to call it your own. You should probably appreciate the help you can get at a site like this. I takes a village...
Scrupulous
by bottleslingguy » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:35 pm
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bottleslingguy - Black Belt
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- Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:41 am
I think the problem is that it (Scroop's suggestion) would make MOPAR's too similar to the VIP with the airflow ducted into the discharge. I think the necessity of the UTA wrecks this idea. I think the "overflow-less" feature is overreaching and compounds problems (what if the overflow overflows?). The toilet can only exist with the UTA and cannot be fitted to a standard flange. That is a major hurdle.
by MOPAR78 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:43 am
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MOPAR78 - Blue Belt
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:57 am
Hi guy's,
I am quite comfortable with the way my idea's set up. It performs as claimed and does not violate codes.
I understand not everyone is going to get it or agree with it. That’s ok.
Anything can be "what if" to death. For example, What if some sling thing around my neck gets caught on something and I trip; will it hang me, break my neck or at the least give me rope burns?
The toilet uses 2 standard flanges and the primary waste flange is roughed in the same location as a standard toilet. So any toilet/urinal, floor mount or wall mount can be connected to it.
By the way.....Is there a cure for "Conformational Bias"
www.bettertoilet.com
I am quite comfortable with the way my idea's set up. It performs as claimed and does not violate codes.
I understand not everyone is going to get it or agree with it. That’s ok.
Anything can be "what if" to death. For example, What if some sling thing around my neck gets caught on something and I trip; will it hang me, break my neck or at the least give me rope burns?
The toilet uses 2 standard flanges and the primary waste flange is roughed in the same location as a standard toilet. So any toilet/urinal, floor mount or wall mount can be connected to it.
By the way.....Is there a cure for "Conformational Bias"
www.bettertoilet.com
by bottleslingguy » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:24 am
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bottleslingguy - Black Belt
- Posts: 1770
- Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:41 am
I'm not talking about what if's. I'm talking about what I think is bad about your idea. You have my blessings to bang your head against a wall, but don't say you weren't warned.
I get the "what if " comment was aimed at my sling but I don't see any connection with what we're talking about. If you want to talk about my idea we can talk about it, but this is about your idea. These aren't "what if's" they are "it is's" and that's where your confirmational bias comes into play. If you have enough money to just go ahead make your toilet you could do that. But if you are going to try and get companies to license the idea they are going to ask tough questions like "what if the overflow feature clogs with tp?" "what if my house is on a slab; how do I install the UTA?" "why do I want to tear up my walls and roof when I can install the VIP?", you know things like that. And I'm sure you'll just tell them THEY don't get it and your toilet is for people who want one. That catch all phrase was invented by inventors suffering from a severe case of confirmational bias. Again, wear a helmet when you meet with these people.
By the way, my sling uses a break away clip that would release automatically in case you are feeding your baby and roller skating at the same time.
I get the "what if " comment was aimed at my sling but I don't see any connection with what we're talking about. If you want to talk about my idea we can talk about it, but this is about your idea. These aren't "what if's" they are "it is's" and that's where your confirmational bias comes into play. If you have enough money to just go ahead make your toilet you could do that. But if you are going to try and get companies to license the idea they are going to ask tough questions like "what if the overflow feature clogs with tp?" "what if my house is on a slab; how do I install the UTA?" "why do I want to tear up my walls and roof when I can install the VIP?", you know things like that. And I'm sure you'll just tell them THEY don't get it and your toilet is for people who want one. That catch all phrase was invented by inventors suffering from a severe case of confirmational bias. Again, wear a helmet when you meet with these people.
By the way, my sling uses a break away clip that would release automatically in case you are feeding your baby and roller skating at the same time.
by MOPAR78 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:17 am
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MOPAR78 - Blue Belt
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:57 am
Yeah but what if...
Bsg, I am just messing with you.
I have answered all those "what if" comments before and I understand that you don't understand or agree with the concept of my idea. That's ok.
The "what ifâ€
Bsg, I am just messing with you.
I have answered all those "what if" comments before and I understand that you don't understand or agree with the concept of my idea. That's ok.
The "what ifâ€
by Scrupulous » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:32 am
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Scrupulous - Black Belt
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- Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:32 pm
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See, this is why you need to brush up on your elevator pitch, Mopar...
Your idea is better than the VIP toilet because it handles the accidental overflow indefinitely. It also ALLOWS for a convenient way to make your toilet odorless.
You obviously haven't prepared yourself for the legitimate technical questions that any prospect worth their salt is going to ask...
Q: What if solids like TP get clogged in your overflow system?
A: Well, we recommend that the consumer follows our simple overflow rinse procedure, once a month (i.e. cover the bowl outlet and flush several times).
Q: What if the overflow overflows?
A: Then the overflow overflows!
Don't dodge the important details.
If you steer clear of your competition, it will be difficult to overcome their presence. When someone says yours is too similar to a competitors, you need to respond immediately that yours is better.
Yours is not better because you have to include or retrofit something no one has ever heard of. Yours is better because it has the potential to do more than your competitor, using common (off-the-shelf) building materials. Period.
How many times do you need to hear it?
Your idea is better than the VIP toilet because it handles the accidental overflow indefinitely. It also ALLOWS for a convenient way to make your toilet odorless.
You obviously haven't prepared yourself for the legitimate technical questions that any prospect worth their salt is going to ask...
Q: What if solids like TP get clogged in your overflow system?
A: Well, we recommend that the consumer follows our simple overflow rinse procedure, once a month (i.e. cover the bowl outlet and flush several times).
Q: What if the overflow overflows?
A: Then the overflow overflows!
Don't dodge the important details.
If you steer clear of your competition, it will be difficult to overcome their presence. When someone says yours is too similar to a competitors, you need to respond immediately that yours is better.
Yours is not better because you have to include or retrofit something no one has ever heard of. Yours is better because it has the potential to do more than your competitor, using common (off-the-shelf) building materials. Period.
How many times do you need to hear it?
by MOPAR78 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:57 am
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MOPAR78 - Blue Belt
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:57 am
Scrupulous,
You’re Questions:
Q: What if solids like TP get clogged in your overflow system?
Go to page 1, 9th post... I have addressed this already.
Q: What if the overflow overflows?
A: Then you have serious problems as the only way this could happen is the main is clogged and sewage would be backing up in your tub and shower as well.
I am not dodging anything, especially the competition as I addressed on page 5 1st posts.
Q: How many times do you need to hear it?
A: Unknown at this time.
I think I see a new term developing: "Reverse Conformational Bias"
www.bettertoilet.com
You’re Questions:
Q: What if solids like TP get clogged in your overflow system?
Go to page 1, 9th post... I have addressed this already.
Q: What if the overflow overflows?
A: Then you have serious problems as the only way this could happen is the main is clogged and sewage would be backing up in your tub and shower as well.
I am not dodging anything, especially the competition as I addressed on page 5 1st posts.
Q: How many times do you need to hear it?
A: Unknown at this time.
I think I see a new term developing: "Reverse Conformational Bias"
www.bettertoilet.com
by makeworldbetter » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:37 am
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makeworldbetter - Black Belt
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:15 am
- Location: Silicon Valley
MOPAR
I like your idea as one drop-in solution, which means just replace the toilet bowl and not touching anything else. Ok, maybe connecting to AC line, but that's all. That's an advantage that other solution doesn't have, keep it that way.
I like your idea as one drop-in solution, which means just replace the toilet bowl and not touching anything else. Ok, maybe connecting to AC line, but that's all. That's an advantage that other solution doesn't have, keep it that way.
by MOPAR78 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:40 am
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MOPAR78 - Blue Belt
- Posts: 326
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:57 am
Tim,
Wrong toilet/inventor.
The Toilet you are thinking of is the V.I.P. by Smith.
Thanks for the reply anyways,
Inventor of the:
Odorless and Overflow-less Toilet Systems,
Simply a "Better Toilet".
www.bettertoilet.com
Wrong toilet/inventor.
The Toilet you are thinking of is the V.I.P. by Smith.
Thanks for the reply anyways,
Inventor of the:
Odorless and Overflow-less Toilet Systems,
Simply a "Better Toilet".
www.bettertoilet.com